Cheese Started by muggedzealot 1,547 Views |
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By muggedzealot |
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2012.05.11 So since the dawn of e-Sports people have been throwing around the term "cheese" as a negative term to describe exploitative strategies. With respect to the current state of pro-level SC2, I would like to propose that viewers stop thinking of all-ins and quick timing attacks as a "cheesy" or inferior way to play the game, especially when it wins against great players who are on epic win streaks. Case in point, MVPs dismantling of the last two Protoss players he's faced (Naniwa/Parting); both looked completely unstoppable prior to playin MVP. MVP select ed all ins and 1 and 2 base timing attacks (executed with excellent skill) several times in those two matches, and came out dominant. Now I believe that if you're going to play a sport, you should do whatever is legal under the rules in order to win; this is true of all sports. If something is an exploit or cheesy, it is up to those who make the rules to fix it. The players have a duty to maximize their chances of winning, using whatever strategy is most appropriate for the metagame at that time. Right now, Protoss metagame is out of control greedy and focused on the late game, thus quick timings are the perfect counter choice. For select ing them and playing them so beautifully, I applaud MVP rather than decry him. The thing that separates legends from other professional players is that they do more than microgame and macrogame, they actually define and shift the metagame. |
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By Fidoii |
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- 2012.05.22
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I watch this game/sport as a spectator, for me when i saw Naniwa get cheesed and eliminated i got the feeling i got robbed of the experience of watching these two pros duke it out so to say. Imagine like in boxing the refere starts the round, they are going to shake gloves but one of them insta knocks the other guy instead. Legal blow maybe. But not what i as a spectator had hoped for. If MVP had gone along with the macro games instead, fast or even double expanding. Then winning after 3x 40min games. I would have ALOT more respect for him. Understand now? If you're using boxing as a reference then I guess you forgot that hundreds of people that paid $3,000 tickets to watch a live Mike Tyson knock someone out 20 seconds into round 1.
Sure, you may feel robbed because you, personally, don't like watching a match ends that quickly, but that doesn't stop the other people in the world from enjoying what they love.
And you should already have respect for MVP, he is a 3 time GSL champion ffs (before winning this one). I'll bet you 9 out of 10 games or even less MVP has played in all of his games in Starcraft II broadcast history has been a macro game. |
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By masktuxedo77 |
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- 2012.05.20
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I watch this game/sport as a spectator, for me when i saw Naniwa get cheesed and eliminated i got the feeling i got robbed of the experience of watching these two pros duke it out so to say. Imagine like in boxing the refere starts the round, they are going to shake gloves but one of them insta knocks the other guy instead. Legal blow maybe. But not what i as a spectator had hoped for. If MVP had gone along with the macro games instead, fast or even double expanding. Then winning after 3x 40min games. I would have ALOT more respect for him. Understand now? I think the comparison with boxing is incorrect. In SC2, especially in Korea, non of the player "expect" the other to avoid cheese at all . So there is nothing in SC2 to compare with that touch glove example. If anything, it would be like you have two MMA guys who are grappling specialist and you expected a long match that would test their cardio and suff, and you go to the match expecting to experience all sort of grappling show cases, and then at the 5 second into the 1st round, a guy just nock the other out - that would actually be epic in my opinion. People actually hate bit-by-bit so much only because he was so predictable with his cheese. He actually showed that he lack any macro skill. And people knew he could not advance in long term. The same thing cannot be said about MVP. He was always inteligent in select ing his strategy. His 7th game is unexpected, totally a suprised to the caster, the audience, and most importantly, to Squirtle. Squirtle, after 6 somewhat standard games with lots of marco slug fest did not expect MVP to pull cheese in that last game at all. And that bold move is what make MVP the champion this time! |
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By agentkirb |
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- 2012.05.20 I understand if you are the type of player that ONLY cheeses and can't mix in more macro oriented play around that. Obviously MVP can do a little of both. |
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By masktuxedo77 |
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- 2012.05.19
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smecto you idiot he wasnt saying that mvp did anything wrong, he just said that viewers would have prefered to see long macro games thats all. no one says that mvp shouldnt have done what he did. He did not say viewer in general. He spoke for himself only. And rightfylly. Not al viewers want the same thing. And all those whi think MVP could only "go so far" - looks to me its far enough now, lol. Next session the meta game might change and he might play differentlt. For now im glad he just proved you all wrong |
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By diekontrolleure |
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- 2012.05.13 smecto you idiot he wasnt saying that mvp did anything wrong, he just said that viewers would have prefered to see long macro games thats all. no one says that mvp shouldnt have done what he did. |
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By Smecto |
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- 2012.05.13
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I watch this game/sport as a spectator, for me when i saw Naniwa get cheesed and eliminated i got the feeling i got robbed of the experience of watching these two pros duke it out so to say. Imagine like in boxing the refere starts the round, they are going to shake gloves but one of them insta knocks the other guy instead. Legal blow maybe. But not what i as a spectator had hoped for. If MVP had gone along with the macro games instead, fast or even double expanding. Then winning after 3x 40min games. I would have ALOT more respect for him. Understand now? No I dont understand. If you cant block the first incomming punch... |
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By Ronaldo |
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- 2012.05.13
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so ppl who call mvp's plays "cheese", i wanna ask u. what is NOT "cheese"? does it have to be all 30min+ games so it doesnt become "cheese"? does it have to be the game u have to have 6 bases and tech up all and have 3/3 upgrades? get real noobs. u cant call all timing attacks "cheese". 6 pool 4 gates yes things like those can be cheese. but for god sake why do these noob keep calling 2 base timing attacks or 3 base attacks "cheese" how the hell are they cheese? what the hell is NOT cheese to u? if u get greedy and when high end players like mvp sees the hole in ur build he will make u pay for being greedy. no one is stupid enough to let u have all the tech u want. god... I watch this game/sport as a spectator, for me when i saw Naniwa get cheesed and eliminated i got the feeling i got robbed of the experience of watching these two pros duke it out so to say. Imagine like in boxing the refere starts the round, they are going to shake gloves but one of them insta knocks the other guy instead. Legal blow maybe. But not what i as a spectator had hoped for. If MVP had gone along with the macro games instead, fast or even double expanding. Then winning after 3x 40min games. I would have ALOT more respect for him. Understand now? |
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By angrybirds |
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- 2012.05.13 so ppl who call mvp's plays "cheese", i wanna ask u. what is NOT "cheese"? does it have to be all 30min+ games so it doesnt become "cheese"? does it have to be the game u have to have 6 bases and tech up all and have 3/3 upgrades?
get real noobs. u cant call all timing attacks "cheese". 6 pool 4 gates yes things like those can be cheese. but for god sake why do these noob keep calling 2 base timing attacks or 3 base attacks "cheese" how the hell are they cheese? what the hell is NOT cheese to u?
if u get greedy and when high end players like mvp sees the hole in ur build he will make u pay for being greedy. no one is stupid enough to let u have all the tech u want.
god... |
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By Gesarjack |
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- 2012.05.12 so this is another post about terrans being terran and protosses being protoss right? |
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By FirstAssault |
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- 2012.05.12 I love how Protoss fanboys whine about MVP, the lack of memory dont let them remember the cheesy all iner MC used to be and they loved him. But yeah if a Terran do it, its because he cant play a straigth up game but when MC used to do it ALL THE TIME (he 4 gated to a GSL victory) he was the best and all of them sucked him up so bad.
QQ MOAR!! |
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By Tigerhawk71 |
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- 2012.05.12 Translation: I play Terran and i'm glad Protoss are losing.
The reality is all Terrans ever DO is MM, get stim and combat shields and hit with the first two medivacs, then die and complain about Protoss a-moving. Now that shit doesn't work, they have to change it up.
Sadly MVP can't seem to win normal games lately and has turned into what MC is - he either wins with all-in off 1 or 2 base or just loses.
In the same way that i enjoyed watching BitByBitPrime play, i enjoy watching MvP cheese. That is to say - yeah he wins, do anything it takes. I get that, and sometime things snowball and get exciting. But it's usually boring, uninteresting and shows a lack of skill and creativity by not being able to overcome the current "metagame" by doing something OTHER than simply all-inning your opponent.
And as already stated - the all-in play he's been doing lately won't last for long. At some point, he's going to have to learn how to play a normal game again. |
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By FaceTheSun |
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- 2012.05.12 I still don't know what the big deal is about so called "Cheese". The object of the game is to beat your opponent using the tools the game allows while defending against their efforts to beat you. If you don't scout you get what you deserve. No, I am not an MVP fanboy. I wanted the finals to be Parting vs Hero. |
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By Ronaldo |
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- 2012.05.11
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What mvp did wasn't cheese, more precisely planned out timing attacks. Yea he just "happened" to catch naniwa and parting off guard. Note that parting had over a week to prepare for his match against mvp, he knew how mvp played against naniwa, he knew about the complications with mvp's wrist, and he's seen mvp macro/long games, he should have been very well prepared for whatever timing/all-in/cheese mvp throw at him, and in game 2 I believe, where he scouted mvp, he was still unable to stop the push. Those games were more so lost by parting than won by mvp. What mvp can do right now in terms of a long macro games with multitasking, upgrade, unit control, economy is questionable, mostly because there hasn't been a lot of long macro games out of him. Being a fan favourite and a legend people will always cheer for him and he will always have the mental edge of being the bonjwa, mvp, best player in the world. No matter what skill level everyone is now, that's got to be a stressful thing for squirtle to think about. Hope mvp does well in the finals :) !! I don't see him taking out squirtle tbh but still rooting for him! GLHF Bitbybit prime didnt cheese either then, he just happend to do a all in :D . Man MVP fanboys cant see the forest for the trees.... |
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By sXeLollita |
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- 2012.05.11 What mvp did wasn't cheese, more precisely planned out timing attacks. Yea he just "happened" to catch naniwa and parting off guard. Note that parting had over a week to prepare for his match against mvp, he knew how mvp played against naniwa, he knew about the complications with mvp's wrist, and he's seen mvp macro/long games, he should have been very well prepared for whatever timing/all-in/cheese mvp throw at him, and in game 2 I believe, where he scouted mvp, he was still unable to stop the push.
Those games were more so lost by parting than won by mvp. What mvp can do right now in terms of a long macro games with multitasking, upgrade, unit control, economy is questionable, mostly because there hasn't been a lot of long macro games out of him. Being a fan favourite and a legend people will always cheer for him and he will always have the mental edge of being the bonjwa, mvp, best player in the world. No matter what skill level everyone is now, that's got to be a stressful thing for squirtle to think about.
Hope mvp does well in the finals :) !! I don't see him taking out squirtle tbh but still rooting for him! GLHF |
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By Ronaldo |
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- 2012.05.11 I like how everyone and his mother suddenly just love cheese! Just because they are MVP fans no doubt..... |
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By diekontrolleure |
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- 2012.05.11 lol the strats mvp used are not going to last him very long if he keeps playing like this. you see those kind of strats can only get you so far. when rain and inca got into the finals everybody knew they were going to get raped cause they used cheep cheesy strats to get there. now mvp of course is the most successful player of all time but right now his shape isnt the best. i mean look at the game he lost against parting when he had to play late game. he seemed like a fish out of water. he caught naniwa and parting of guard but squirtle will be ready. i would love mvp to win but this will be a clean sweap. 4-0, guaranteed. |
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