By scared queer

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- 2012.10.24

By aktiv_b

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- 2012.10.15

So "cheese" should not be acceptable on the ladder, because you are playing to get better/enjoy yourself?

If you are unable to hold off cheese, you are not getting better. And it's _very_ enjoyable to hold off cheese.

If you are killed off by the same cheesy strat game after game, there is a hole in your play, not something wrong with how the game or the ladder system works.

And if you equate "getting better" with "enjoying yourself" you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how to actually achieve something. If you want to get really good at something, that's _hard_ work and intentional directed effort. There is nothing casual about that, ask anyone who has actually done it.

"Cheese should not be acceptable on the ladder" is the same as saying that you think you are "really better" than people beating you and ranked higher than you, but because of cheese, you are held down. Nonsense. If you are playing at any decent level, people ranked higher than you are better than you at everything, including holding off cheese. If holding off cheese is the only hole in your play you should be grateful, because this is a far easier hole to plug than say poor lategame specific scenario decisions. Most likely it's not. "I'm actually really good but I just get cheesed all the time" just means you are actually not really good, sorry.

What I'm really curious about, is how you people who think cheese should be unacceptable on the ladder (or in general) suggests something like that should be enforced? Should there be judges overruling outcomes of games, saying "no that was too cheesy".

What then, loser wins? Rematch? What if the exact same cheese is executed again, what then? What if the losing player does not scout at all, what then? What if it as old cheese, that most players know how to hold, but the losing player are unable to, what then? "No, this cheese is known and easily holdable, so the cheesing player should get the win, but that cheese was new and unknown and clearly an exploit so the cheesing player's victory should be overruled."

What else, no rush rules? at what, 5 min, 7 min, 10 min, 15? What if one player attacks with an all-in at 5:01 while the other player is still prepping for lategame, do you think now suddenly no-one would be crying "booo!! cheese!!" ?

If you are complaining about "cheese", and saying it should be unacceptable, you should be able to provide some suggestion or insight on how it should be reasonably dealt with. If not you are just whining.

By c6burns

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- 2012.07.22

By BDiego

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- 2012.07.19

Well the other thing about tourneys is you have a series where even if you cheese one game, you have a hard time cheesing them all.  You can cheese every game on b-net, and nobody will catch on because you'll play someone new.

If Supernova goes 14CC every single game on a map, and Nesttea 10pool's him, that's well deserved cheese.  So there's another thing about cheese being done to punish ridiculously greedy non-scouting builds.

By blackmambah

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- 2012.07.16

By SickeLZerg

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- 2012.07.14

The only time cheese should be acceptable is in pro games, because it's pro games and you're playing to win, not to enjoy yourself/get better.

Cheese should not be acceptable in ladder, in my opinion. Bunker rushes especially in TvZ, as they force you to either spend larva on lings, pull your queen, drop a spine, or pull drones, all of which will put oyu behind.

By BDiego

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- 2012.07.12

Cheesing in a series makes a lot more sense than cheesing in a bo1.  I've had people cheese me on the ladder in game#2 because they assumed I'd repeat a previous build (CC first or hatch first in ZvZ, for example - I play all 3 races).

The best time to cheese is when you've scouted your opponent and see greedy play.  If toss goes Nexus first in TvP, they deserve a bunker rush or marine+scv all in.

At some point, if a player like Zerg simply makes 2 Hatcheries before pool (a common pro build these days) but doesn't scout, they deserve to be cheesed.  So there's a difference between blind cheese and cheesing someone who played ridiculously greedy.

By I3ender

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- 2012.07.09

id cheese every fucking map in every series if my wrists were as bad as his and it meant id take 50 mill krw.

that much extra to support his family which he stated several times were poor when he started, i bet he doesnt give a single fuck.

game-genie terran 

By gusavo

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- 2012.06.23

By KazMisMas

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- 2012.06.22

It doesnt matter how someone plays as long as he wins.

You can't cheese every game, because if you would everyone knows you're a cheeser and scout for it immediately.

Other way around if you always play greedy, you'll most likely lose to cheese because your opponent knows that kind of playstyle from you.

As stupid as it may sound but i love watching 6pools, gateway rushes, 2rax allins etc.

By TNfitz

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- 2012.06.22

Cheese or known as a early game rush gives is a double edge sword, pardon the expression. If you are able to get away with a two rax, 2 gate, 6 pool and the other plethora of other "cheese" strategies. 

It has to do with what your abilities are in game. For me it is my micro. I often two rax people. Now of course when people scout you and know all they need to do is place a cannon, spine, or bunker up then they know how to fend off the attack. The two rax can win games but it can easily make you lose games.

It has to do with the risk versus reward sort of issue. Do I try to catch my opponent off guard by playing unauthoriox (cheesy) or do I do a standard macro game. So example today the series between Startale_Ace Vs. SlayerS.Ryung. Ryung in parts of that series was way further behind yet his micro was able to overcome the situation. Ace won the games when it got into the super late game and when Ryung had difficulty defeating the death ball because Ace knew his strongest position in game is a long macro game and that the longer the game goes on the stronger protoss becomes.

Now of course we are talking about Cheese. The same principle is present. Are you good at executing a certain build order over another? Do you prefer to do All In's rather then a macro game? It comes down to the player.

When you cheese someone effectively it is normal for your opponent to say how bad of a player you are when they effectively deflect your cheese. Then you have to ask yourslef do you want to further diversify your play style or rather continue doing the same thing?

If you diversify your build orders and know what to do I believe you become a better player. However the counter arguement to this madness is back in the Brood War scene. The current player named Sziky has won countless tournaments by just simply doing the "cheesy" strategie of two hatchery muta. People know him for doing it but they can't stop him from winning game after game.

So the question to ask is more or less does cheese make you a better player? In Sziky's case yes. I believe diverisfiying your builds and play style makes you a stronger player. 

By blackmambah

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- 2012.06.22

By belatube

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- 2012.06.21

By belatube

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- 2012.06.21

only dimond n lower players cry about cheese.  Specially once that are fanboys of certian casters/pros who hate n look down upon cheesy builds over macro.   Pro players specially Code S players know they will face cheese builds specially vs players who they have a big advantage over.  these Pros know what to scout and how to counter almost every cheese that is known right now.  and if they hold  the chances of them winning is alot better.  guys in who cry about cheese are low players who die to them in ladders day after day.    in ladder i  love it when im getting cheesed cuz i actually have time  to react n i know ifi hold properly it will be EZPZ.  n wait for that Rage quit from them

By LordXar

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- 2012.06.13

I agree totally.

Yes MVP had to cheese that last game to win, but it's not his fault it wasn't scouted! Cheese is just as important  as longer macro games. If you don't pull it off you loose, if you do pull it off correctly you win. There is actual skill involved in sucessfully succeading with a cheese build.

By shoshin

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- 2012.05.30

By KevGr69

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- 2012.05.30

I LOVE to cheese. I LOVE to see (interesting) cheeses!!!  Interesting cheeses include:  anything thats not a spine crawler rush in zvz where the loser goes 16 hatch/16 gas /16 pool.

Cheese is what prevents macro builds from getting out of control like 16 hatch/16 gas/16 pool (i just personally think that its boring to watch lol, not that it should not be done)

As a zerg player, I consider myself to be more of a macro player.  But I cheese (MVP style) approximately 50% of my games because its fun.  What I mean by MVP style is this: every game was NOT a scv marine rush!!!  There are interesting builds that are both fun to play, viable, and hard counter greedy builds.  My definition of cheese is simply that the outcome is sometimes beyond your control, may result in a build order loss, and most importantly you WILL lose with an undesirable outcome.

By MVP style, I mean that I will *NOT* use the same cheese over and over again, unless I am practicing a specific build.  I will macro 50% of the time, but for example, in zvz, I will also spine crawler rush/fast pool, mass speedling macro hatch, speedling baneling all in, fast +1 roach all in, and roach baneling all in.

So, as you can see, I have 6 builds that I use in zvz.  Each build has a specific counter, but also counters very specific things.  I should also note, that roach baneling all in is one of my more used builds but I still consider it a cheese.

Now you know that I am a cheesy player.  How do you prepare against me?  With the proper build select ion, MANY cheeses can be included, and you will have no idea which build I am going to use.  There is nothing wrong with cheese - it is fun to do, fun to watch, and makes for interesting games.  But more importantly, build variation can add to your success by making your builds unpredictable.

The only downside to build variations on the ladder is that you do not play the same player very many times, and he probably won't recall what you did to him a month ago.  

In the long run, I think that MVP's style this season will catch on.  A LOT of cheeses/strange builds to catch opponents off guard.  Genius.

By muggedzealot

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- 2012.05.24

By c6burns

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- 2012.05.24

Cheese is fine, cheese is necessary, but cheese isn't always fun to watch. However, with how greedy some of these builds are getting on large maps as of late ... I am loving some cheese here and there!

Skip your scouting at your own peril, baby ... that's what mixing in cheese tells your future (or current) opponents haha

By mrjpark

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- 2012.05.23