MarrineKingPrime (MLG spoiler) Started by masktuxedo77 3,481 Views |
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By masktuxedo77 |
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2012.03.26 MKP got it the second time! It is 2 time in a row and the prize this time is actually 25K! He looked so unstopable, droping only a few maps and crushing DRG with a variaty of builds: - Mech (man, now we know that thor + medivac is good against zerglings :)- those thor pickup is just so sick!) - A game with tank + MMM + blue flame hellions + banshee! Such a rare composition - at one point of the game I think we see all of them together in a push, and he actually has plenty of all of them, except for banshees (well, he has two cloaked banshees, which count also as plenty I think :). I almost wrote it as standard tank marrine but saw that again and realize it is far from standard! - Weird bio-mech composisions (hellions + MM in a game and thors + marrine + hellions in another) - And even that seemingly outdated MMM balls (WOW - I dont understand how it could work actually, so weird - have not seen in a long time, but MKP somehow made it work).
What do you guys think about MKP right now? Is he that unstopable, or it is just that DRG is is a small slump after his big championship? One thing for sure, he is as exciting as ever. Anyway, so glad now because I really like MKP. Hope he get a GSL soon. |
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By gusavo |
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- 2012.03.31
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Meh.. I'm more impressed by MKP winning 2 MLGs in a row than anything he did against DRG. However, DRG has won a GSL, and was probably still drunk during MLG. When MKP wins a GSL, beating DRG on the way there, then we can say that he's better than DRG. As it stands, DRG had little motivation (or at least, not as much as MKP) to win the MLG, so we don't know exactly how much effort DRG put forth into his games. MKP certainly tried his very best. I should also say that even though I hate every single Terran player for the stupid cheese tactics that have been mastered, I really respect MKP, the person.. so I'm not even saying any of this because I like DRG more than him. Between the both of them, I don't really have a preference. I simply just don't think MKP has done enough to conclusively say he's better than DRG, but I do hope that he does win a GSL some day. Nobody that hasn't won one yet deserves it more than MKP. On a side note, I'm so happy that DRG has vindicated my man love for him since the very first time I saw him play in the GSTL. I think he's the very first GSTL superstar that has won a GSL and proved to everyone that he isn't just a GSTL player. Guys like Yonghwa, Seed, Sage and all those other guys that Artosis wants to do inappropriate things with don't even come close to holding a candle to DRG. Last GSL is probably the last time I'm going to be buying a season as well since I no longer have time for it, so I'm so glad that DRG won it! I also hope this trend of people not repeating championships continues. It gets really boring when the same guys win all the time. no we cant ever say anyone is better based on results |
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By diekontrolleure |
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- 2012.03.30 marrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrineking |
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By masktuxedo77 |
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- 2012.03.30 For me, BTW, the fact that each race have to play differently - not just on micro level, but even on the strategy level - is the baeuty of the game. On that aspect, i think SCII achieve even more than BW. And I have to repeat myself - there is definately positively a legitimate way for terran to keep up w morith zerg and probably also protoss in late game - that is to be aggressive early - either do some serious damage, or get the map control, or force your opponent to produce units earl
Also, this is a big SPOILER for those who did not catch it this morning, so please be warn:
SPOILER SPOILER DO NOT READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT SPOILER :)
It is indeed proven that as of right now MRK is a better player than DRG. DRG, as it turn out, came up last in his group (Ironically, he is considered the best ZvT in the world and in his group he has to play nothing but against terran). It probably not just the fact that he was a bit down after that championship - that could easily happen BTW becuase just like in any other sport, players probably pacing their practice so that they are on their top on the final - or at least they will try to be on their best some times before the final and maintain that status for a while. After the final it is understandable for them to have some down time. But anyway, I think even if DRG had no down time at all, the mere fact that he was the last champion puts him on the spotlight and I'm sure every team analyzed his play style quite thoroughly. And since MKP seems to find DRG's hole in ZvT, others might learn from it already. |
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By NHLFever |
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- 2012.03.30 PS just to add to the above: I play random so I'm not a terran complainer. Terran is the hardest to use IMO, because you have to constantly pay vigilant attention to macro and build. If you are lazy and forget to do stuff with zerg its more ok. If you have 3 hatch and you forget to do things for a few minutes, you can just make all 9 larvae in to something. If you forget about your 3 rax, you can't make 9 marines to catch up, only 3. Not every one will agree, but my experience is that I basically play a league lower when using terran because it takes much more babysitting. |
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By NHLFever |
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- 2012.03.30
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Did this only happen in the MLG? Because I didn't watch it. DRG uses plenty of straight up play against Terran. I of course don't blame the Terran players for using these all-in strategies (and there are a lot of them), because Blizzard allowed them to be so damn strong and made Terran lategame so lollerifically pathetic, but I still don't like it. Protoss and Zeg have few early game rush strategies in comparison that are as powerful as what Terran has, and so they are forced to play better into the late game simply because of the race they chose. That, my friend, is not balance. Look at Bomber for example.. every second game, he does some stupid proxy Rax strategy (and it hurts my brain that people don't scout for this considering he's so prone to doing it).. outside the GSTL, how's Bomber doing these days? Even MVP is resorting to these types of strategies because he can't even get to the late game anymore. So far, most Terran players (maybe all?) have won on the strength of their race's early game and the simplicity of their race overall. Now that it's time for them to actually play games for more than 10 minutes, how many times do they win? Terran is going downhill, and I'm enjoying every minute of it. The balance of the game right now means that terran has to do damage in early or early/mid otherwise they lose. It's not possible to keep up economically, period. Because of the slow buildup required for terran units (unlike insta-build of an entire army for zerg or almost inta for protoss), you need to make things the entire game, and therefore you need to use them otherwise its just wasted time and money. To stand a chance of containing zerg rapid early expansion you need mobility. That means hellions. If you made hellions, you gotta use them. That's just how this works. Bunker rush is so easy to defend its kind of a joke to complain about it. In any half-competent gold leaguer's hands, the bunker rush will serve to distract drones from mining for 20-30 seconds and force production of 2-4 extra lings. That puts tvz on more equal economic footing early game. If terran can legitimately keep up on macro alone you would not see all the early stuff. Since it is simply not technically possible, there is really no choice. |
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By YungLee |
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- 2012.03.29
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After he had just won.. what was it.. 80k? well.... if i made a million dollars its not gonna stop me from making another 275,000 |
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By masktuxedo77 |
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- 2012.03.29 Well, if you want to stick with the whole 1 season of GSL, suite yourself. You dont want to talk about a the GSL season before that and you also do not want to talk about recent thing outside GSL. As for balance and things like that, not sure if you talk about the same game as I actually. Terran players still can apply preasure to get to late game with the same economy as zerg and protoss. A presure doesn't have to be bunker rush or blue flame hellion run by. Just the mere fact that hellions are on the map, for example, is enough to force the zerg to produce defensive mechanism, meaning less droning. Meanwhile terran can actually fast exapnd now, too. Late game terran vs zerg is quite balance right now IMO. It is just all about skill now, not race. It oculd always go both way. Also in late game TvZ it is Zerg that is the most imobile. Broodlords are so slow and you cannot leave them alone without supporting ground unit. In my observation, thats why late game zerg wins by destroying terran main army. Terran on the other hand wins by sniping zerg's hatchery most of the time. Terran only have a temporary problem with late game protoss now. Particularly they have problem against zealots with charge. But even that advantage is nowadays not as problematic as in the last season. |
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By AppleAndOrange |
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- 2012.03.29
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Look at the last MMA vs DRG at GSL. The only games that DRG won against MMA were roach bane or some early/mid game aggression. DRG himself said that he did not want to face MMA in late game for MMA will be aal over the map and DRG cannot keep track of it (not exactly his word, but something like that). In GSL MMA won most of the long macro games against DRG (and he did not use that "OP" ghost unit, mind you). I agree that DRG used plenty of straight up plays against Terran, but against top notch TvZ like MMA or MKP lately, he just could not keep up (well, MKP said he used some strategy tailor made for DRG, but MMA just played his normal game after all). I almost chuckled when I saw your remark about Terran going downhill :). I absolutely do not agree that Terran lategame is weak, especially against zerg. It is just that you have to fight in an equal economic term with them. And the way the game is designed, a terran player can only be as economically strong as a zerg player if he press it constantly. It is just that they used to depend a lot on ghost, and it just got nerfed. Soon Terran players will find some other way to get by (well, like I said in some other topic, Terran was doing OK before they utilize ghost). Other than that, I am not going to argue with you about terran OP (early game at least, in your term). I am a terran player, so I think it is OK if zerg and protoss players in the world believe in that. Because with that mentality, they will just give up, just like Idra. Which games against MMA are you talking about? The ones over a month ago are barely valid right now. Remember, I didn't watch the MLG so I have no comment about those games. You hit the nail on the head - Terran late game are fine, IF they have an economic advantage or are at least economically equal. If a Terran does not pressure Z or P in the early-mid game, they can never have that advantage because of spawn larva and chrono. Also, Terran are by far the least mobile race, so if it gets to a game with 5-6 bases, Terran bases are spread too far around the map to all be defensible, so they either have to try to defend them all (and promptly get owned by their opponent committing all their units to attacks) or they have to focus their defenses on a few bases and hope their outlying bases don't get attacked, all the while constantly keeping up the pressure on their opponent. Either way, Terran MUST be ahead late game to really win against the other races.. and since the other races (at least the top players) have really become quite good at holding back Terran early aggression, Terran starts to suck. Can't win early-mid because the best players are able to hold it back, and can't win late game because Z and P late game are just better. A lot of this is due to fundamental design flaws in the game |
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By masktuxedo77 |
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- 2012.03.29
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Did this only happen in the MLG? Because I didn't watch it. DRG uses plenty of straight up play against Terran. I of course don't blame the Terran players for using these all-in strategies (and there are a lot of them), because Blizzard allowed them to be so damn strong and made Terran lategame so lollerifically pathetic, but I still don't like it. Protoss and Zeg have few early game rush strategies in comparison that are as powerful as what Terran has, and so they are forced to play better into the late game simply because of the race they chose. That, my friend, is not balance. Look at Bomber for example.. every second game, he does some stupid proxy Rax strategy (and it hurts my brain that people don't scout for this considering he's so prone to doing it).. outside the GSTL, how's Bomber doing these days? Even MVP is resorting to these types of strategies because he can't even get to the late game anymore. So far, most Terran players (maybe all?) have won on the strength of their race's early game and the simplicity of their race overall. Now that it's time for them to actually play games for more than 10 minutes, how many times do they win? Terran is going downhill, and I'm enjoying every minute of it. Look at the last MMA vs DRG at GSL. The only games that DRG won against MMA were roach bane or some early/mid game aggression. DRG himself said that he did not want to face MMA in late game for MMA will be aal over the map and DRG cannot keep track of it (not exactly his word, but something like that). In GSL MMA won most of the long macro games against DRG (and he did not use that "OP" ghost unit, mind you). I agree that DRG used plenty of straight up plays against Terran, but against top notch TvZ like MMA or MKP lately, he just could not keep up (well, MKP said he used some strategy tailor made for DRG, but MMA just played his normal game after all). I almost chuckled when I saw your remark about Terran going downhill :). I absolutely do not agree that Terran lategame is weak, especially against zerg. It is just that you have to fight in an equal economic term with them. And the way the game is designed, a terran player can only be as economically strong as a zerg player if he press it constantly. It is just that they used to depend a lot on ghost, and it just got nerfed. Soon Terran players will find some other way to get by (well, like I said in some other topic, Terran was doing OK before they utilize ghost).
Other than that, I am not going to argue with you about terran OP (early game at least, in your term). I am a terran player, so I think it is OK if zerg and protoss players in the world believe in that. Because with that mentality, they will just give up, just like Idra. |
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By AppleAndOrange |
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- 2012.03.29
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I do not totally disagree with you on DRG vs MKP. LIke I said, I include everything like state of mind and the like. If DRG was "drunk" during MLG, he might be the same in GSL also. Remember that the prize is the same in term of money. I of course disagree with you completely on the notion of "cheesy" terran. I agree with Day 9 said he does not believe in the work "cheese" - that it is just a term of emotion - the frustration of those who fail to defend against it. Like those who complains that they cannot advance to diamond because of "too many cheese". But anyway, it is your own opinion. Ironically, though, when DRG face his terran rivals like MKP and MMA, the only few games that he won against them are "cheesy" games with roach bane all in and stuff like that. Lastly, I belive it is MMA who was the first GSTL star who won a GSL. Did this only happen in the MLG? Because I didn't watch it. DRG uses plenty of straight up play against Terran. I of course don't blame the Terran players for using these all-in strategies (and there are a lot of them), because Blizzard allowed them to be so damn strong and made Terran lategame so lollerifically pathetic, but I still don't like it. Protoss and Zeg have few early game rush strategies in comparison that are as powerful as what Terran has, and so they are forced to play better into the late game simply because of the race they chose. That, my friend, is not balance. Look at Bomber for example.. every second game, he does some stupid proxy Rax strategy (and it hurts my brain that people don't scout for this considering he's so prone to doing it).. outside the GSTL, how's Bomber doing these days? Even MVP is resorting to these types of strategies because he can't even get to the late game anymore. So far, most Terran players (maybe all?) have won on the strength of their race's early game and the simplicity of their race overall. Now that it's time for them to actually play games for more than 10 minutes, how many times do they win? Terran is going downhill, and I'm enjoying every minute of it. |
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By AppleAndOrange |
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- 2012.03.29
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25,000$ worth of motivation After he had just won.. what was it.. 80k? |
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By masktuxedo77 |
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- 2012.03.28
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Meh.. I'm more impressed by MKP winning 2 MLGs in a row than anything he did against DRG. However, DRG has won a GSL, and was probably still drunk during MLG. When MKP wins a GSL, beating DRG on the way there, then we can say that he's better than DRG. As it stands, DRG had little motivation (or at least, not as much as MKP) to win the MLG, so we don't know exactly how much effort DRG put forth into his games. MKP certainly tried his very best. I should also say that even though I hate every single Terran player for the stupid cheese tactics that have been mastered, I really respect MKP, the person.. so I'm not even saying any of this because I like DRG more than him. Between the both of them, I don't really have a preference. I simply just don't think MKP has done enough to conclusively say he's better than DRG, but I do hope that he does win a GSL some day. Nobody that hasn't won one yet deserves it more than MKP. On a side note, I'm so happy that DRG has vindicated my man love for him since the very first time I saw him play in the GSTL. I think he's the very first GSTL superstar that has won a GSL and proved to everyone that he isn't just a GSTL player. Guys like Yonghwa, Seed, Sage and all those other guys that Artosis wants to do inappropriate things with don't even come close to holding a candle to DRG. Last GSL is probably the last time I'm going to be buying a season as well since I no longer have time for it, so I'm so glad that DRG won it! I also hope this trend of people not repeating championships continues. It gets really boring when the same guys win all the time. I do not totally disagree with you on DRG vs MKP. LIke I said, I include everything like state of mind and the like. If DRG was "drunk" during MLG, he might be the same in GSL also. Remember that the prize is the same in term of money.
I of course disagree with you completely on the notion of "cheesy" terran. I agree with Day 9 said he does not believe in the work "cheese" - that it is just a term of emotion - the frustration of those who fail to defend against it. Like those who complains that they cannot advance to diamond because of "too many cheese". But anyway, it is your own opinion. Ironically, though, when DRG face his terran rivals like MKP and MMA, the only few games that he won against them are "cheesy" games with roach bane all in and stuff like that.
Lastly, I belive it is MMA who was the first GSTL star who won a GSL. |
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By YungLee |
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- 2012.03.28 25,000$ worth of motivation |
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By AppleAndOrange |
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- 2012.03.28
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Well, it was 2 serries actually. a Bo7, and then a Bo9. And the Bo9 was extended from a Bo3 where MKP also won. So we could also said that he won 3 last series. Meh.. I'm more impressed by MKP winning 2 MLGs in a row than anything he did against DRG. However, DRG has won a GSL, and was probably still drunk during MLG. When MKP wins a GSL, beating DRG on the way there, then we can say that he's better than DRG. As it stands, DRG had little motivation (or at least, not as much as MKP) to win the MLG, so we don't know exactly how much effort DRG put forth into his games. MKP certainly tried his very best. I should also say that even though I hate every single Terran player for the stupid cheese tactics that have been mastered, I really respect MKP, the person.. so I'm not even saying any of this because I like DRG more than him. Between the both of them, I don't really have a preference. I simply just don't think MKP has done enough to conclusively say he's better than DRG, but I do hope that he does win a GSL some day. Nobody that hasn't won one yet deserves it more than MKP. On a side note, I'm so happy that DRG has vindicated my man love for him since the very first time I saw him play in the GSTL. I think he's the very first GSTL superstar that has won a GSL and proved to everyone that he isn't just a GSTL player. Guys like Yonghwa, Seed, Sage and all those other guys that Artosis wants to do inappropriate things with don't even come close to holding a candle to DRG. Last GSL is probably the last time I'm going to be buying a season as well since I no longer have time for it, so I'm so glad that DRG won it! I also hope this trend of people not repeating championships continues. It gets really boring when the same guys win all the time. |
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By masktuxedo77 |
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- 2012.03.28
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Oh yeah, one series definitely makes him a better overall player.. Well, it was 2 serries actually. a Bo7, and then a Bo9. And the Bo9 was extended from a Bo3 where MKP also won. So we could also said that he won 3 last series. |
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By YungLee |
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- 2012.03.28
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lol warms my heart |
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By AppleAndOrange |
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- 2012.03.28
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Then how do you define "of equal skill"? :) Without a definition, it would be like apple and orange. Would you deine "skill" as APM? Understanding of the game (as in if they take a paper test they would score the same LOL)? or the ability to mine as much resource as possible? Or what? Or may be the amount of practice? Some kind of combination of all of the above? or would you assume that if DRG would practice terran now he will be as good as MKP in no time? And vice versa, if MKP choose zerg now he will reach DRG's level after all, but if they would both switch, DRG will tend to come out on top? Note also that before the MLG winter DRG won against MKP like 6 out of 6 games or something like that (according to Artosis, but I dont remember the exact number). All I can say is that as of right now MKP is a better player than DRG, taking into account everything, including their state of mind as well as SC II racial preference. Oh yeah, one series definitely makes him a better overall player.. |
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By gusavo |
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- 2012.03.28
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i do not possess the descriptive powers to tell anyone how amazin' those finals were. MKP is so good that no one can even mimic what he does lol |
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By gusavo |
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- 2012.03.28
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See how self-confidence is important? MKP has never ever been a bad player, he has always been a ridicoleusly imbalanced skilled player. His problem has been his self-confidence, thus the unstable shape. Now that he won Winter Arena, there is absolutely nobody who can stop him. ... and the way he uses marines/marauders against DRG, nobody else does it but MKP destroys DRG while splitting his marines/marauders across half the god-damn metalopolis map, jesus! MKP will win a GSL this year, no doubt in my mind. lol |
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By masktuxedo77 |
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- 2012.03.27
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When you have a terran and zerg of equal skill, the terran tends to come out on top. Then how do you define "of equal skill"? :) Without a definition, it would be like apple and orange. Would you deine "skill" as APM? Understanding of the game (as in if they take a paper test they would score the same LOL)? or the ability to mine as much resource as possible? Or what? Or may be the amount of practice? Some kind of combination of all of the above? or would you assume that if DRG would practice terran now he will be as good as MKP in no time? And vice versa, if MKP choose zerg now he will reach DRG's level after all, but if they would both switch, DRG will tend to come out on top?
Note also that before the MLG winter DRG won against MKP like 6 out of 6 games or something like that (according to Artosis, but I dont remember the exact number). All I can say is that as of right now MKP is a better player than DRG, taking into account everything, including their state of mind as well as SC II racial preference. |
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